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	<title>Comments on: Christian Excellence</title>
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	<link>http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/christian-excellence/</link>
	<description>The Personal Webspace of Nathan Rice</description>
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		<title>By: Gertrude</title>
		<link>http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/christian-excellence/#comment-9983</link>
		<dc:creator>Gertrude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/20/christian-excellence/#comment-9983</guid>
		<description>This is my first time on your site and am glad I stumbled upon it, I was looking for others teachings to compare notes with, as I am planing to discuss this same topic with the ladies at my local church.I agree with with you totally!!!!it&#039;s amazes me as to why some Christians think they should get away with things at church which they wouldn&#039;t even consider doing at their work place (eg) continual lateness to church meetings,lack of commitment... etc.
I always tell myself if my actions is not good enough for my employers, then its definitely not good enough for my church...we need to move away from anything will do syndrome. And embrace the attitude of excellence after all, God is a God of excellence...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is my first time on your site and am glad I stumbled upon it, I was looking for others teachings to compare notes with, as I am planing to discuss this same topic with the ladies at my local church.I agree with with you totally!!!!it&#8217;s amazes me as to why some Christians think they should get away with things at church which they wouldn&#8217;t even consider doing at their work place (eg) continual lateness to church meetings,lack of commitment&#8230; etc.<br />
I always tell myself if my actions is not good enough for my employers, then its definitely not good enough for my church&#8230;we need to move away from anything will do syndrome. And embrace the attitude of excellence after all, God is a God of excellence&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: b</title>
		<link>http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/christian-excellence/#comment-9698</link>
		<dc:creator>b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/20/christian-excellence/#comment-9698</guid>
		<description>I definitely agree that Christians need to recognize the need for excellence in their lives and service. I&#039;m glad you are discussing this.

I have a small point to address: Consider replacing &quot;effort&quot; (used in &quot;effort does not matter) with &quot;method&quot; as that seems to be the point you are making. The passage in Matthew 25 ends with the master rebuking the 3rd servant saying in verse 26: &quot;You wicked, lazy servant!&quot;. It seems this servant had a lot of character weaknesses including a distrust for his master in addition to being lazy/lacking effort. Certainly the amount of effort each of us are capable of will differ based on the ability that God has given us (the mater gave each of the servants a different amount to be responsible for), but He knows who is really trying to please Him and whether or not we are withholding something. 

A great example of God being flexible with our method of obeying him is at the end of Matthew 28. Jesus says, &quot;Go and make disciples of all nations...&quot; and yet doesn&#039;t lay out how exactly the do that. He lived with the disciples and showed many ways to do it, yet cultures change over time and Jesus&#039; command is timeless. It isn&#039;t addressed how we should exactly obey that - only that we need to and scripture gives us enough to start with. God knows if we are trying to obey him or not. A good measure of self is to ask: &quot;In this thing, am I loving God with all of my heart, soul mind and strength?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I definitely agree that Christians need to recognize the need for excellence in their lives and service. I&#8217;m glad you are discussing this.</p>
<p>I have a small point to address: Consider replacing &#8220;effort&#8221; (used in &#8220;effort does not matter) with &#8220;method&#8221; as that seems to be the point you are making. The passage in Matthew 25 ends with the master rebuking the 3rd servant saying in verse 26: &#8220;You wicked, lazy servant!&#8221;. It seems this servant had a lot of character weaknesses including a distrust for his master in addition to being lazy/lacking effort. Certainly the amount of effort each of us are capable of will differ based on the ability that God has given us (the mater gave each of the servants a different amount to be responsible for), but He knows who is really trying to please Him and whether or not we are withholding something. </p>
<p>A great example of God being flexible with our method of obeying him is at the end of Matthew 28. Jesus says, &#8220;Go and make disciples of all nations&#8230;&#8221; and yet doesn&#8217;t lay out how exactly the do that. He lived with the disciples and showed many ways to do it, yet cultures change over time and Jesus&#8217; command is timeless. It isn&#8217;t addressed how we should exactly obey that &#8211; only that we need to and scripture gives us enough to start with. God knows if we are trying to obey him or not. A good measure of self is to ask: &#8220;In this thing, am I loving God with all of my heart, soul mind and strength?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: ded</title>
		<link>http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/christian-excellence/#comment-386</link>
		<dc:creator>ded</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/20/christian-excellence/#comment-386</guid>
		<description>I appreciate your passion and position.  I see your logic, however, as formed around the material experience.  It is our excellence in things spiritual that both reveal Christ and remove obstacles.  That is, excellence in being like Jesus...His love, faithfulness, goodness, etc.

When I grew up giving your best meant wearing your best clothes. The spiritual impact of the mind-set was quantifiable, as it contributed to the sense that churches were an exclusive placed with some fairly strict, unwritten social rules.  This demonstrates the weakness of what you are proposing, a focus on excellence in the material realm in the name of honoring Jesus is not excellence in the things of His spirit.

There is nothing wrong with spending money you have on a good sound system, but when we see having that ability and the ownership that results as justified in our attempts to exude a particular quality about ourselves and our group, the focus is clearly no longer about Jesus. It has become about us and our abilities.  A proud man can offer words of praise to God for that over which he is proud, and God will still resist him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate your passion and position.  I see your logic, however, as formed around the material experience.  It is our excellence in things spiritual that both reveal Christ and remove obstacles.  That is, excellence in being like Jesus&#8230;His love, faithfulness, goodness, etc.</p>
<p>When I grew up giving your best meant wearing your best clothes. The spiritual impact of the mind-set was quantifiable, as it contributed to the sense that churches were an exclusive placed with some fairly strict, unwritten social rules.  This demonstrates the weakness of what you are proposing, a focus on excellence in the material realm in the name of honoring Jesus is not excellence in the things of His spirit.</p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with spending money you have on a good sound system, but when we see having that ability and the ownership that results as justified in our attempts to exude a particular quality about ourselves and our group, the focus is clearly no longer about Jesus. It has become about us and our abilities.  A proud man can offer words of praise to God for that over which he is proud, and God will still resist him.</p>
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		<title>By: imparare</title>
		<link>http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/christian-excellence/#comment-385</link>
		<dc:creator>imparare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2007 06:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/20/christian-excellence/#comment-385</guid>
		<description>Interesting comments.. :D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting comments.. <img src='http://www.nathanrice.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: .: The SoapBox :. &#187; Christian Excellence</title>
		<link>http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/christian-excellence/#comment-377</link>
		<dc:creator>.: The SoapBox :. &#187; Christian Excellence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 19:11:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/20/christian-excellence/#comment-377</guid>
		<description>[...] Nathan Rice - &#8220;Christian Excellence&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Nathan Rice &#8211; &#8220;Christian Excellence&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/christian-excellence/#comment-376</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/20/christian-excellence/#comment-376</guid>
		<description>Thanks Ben and Laura for holding the fort :-)

Dan,

I can totally understand your concern.  Unfortunately, we sometimes forget WHO we are worshiping while we focus on WHAT we offer for worship.

However, I do not believe that the pursuit of excellence in our offering of our best to God in all that we do, not just in worship, is &quot;nonsense&quot;.

In fact, I&#039;m not quite sure what you&#039;re suggesting as an alternative to the pursuit of excellence.  And I don&#039;t mean the rhetoric like &quot;recognize who we are worshipping&quot; or &quot;seek His face&quot; etc.  We&#039;re talking methods here.

Is there any particular objection you have to doing music the best we can?  If it&#039;s rock, then do rock the best we can.  If it&#039;s classical, then do classical the best that you can.

My personal objection to many churches is that the members will spend 10 hours preparing a report for work, then have a half-hour choir practice or band practice.  Where are the priorities?

I hope you&#039;ll come back and elaborate for us.  I don&#039;t believe you are calling for us to avoid excellence, but I&#039;m not really sure what you are saying either.  Let us know :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Ben and Laura for holding the fort <img src='http://www.nathanrice.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Dan,</p>
<p>I can totally understand your concern.  Unfortunately, we sometimes forget WHO we are worshiping while we focus on WHAT we offer for worship.</p>
<p>However, I do not believe that the pursuit of excellence in our offering of our best to God in all that we do, not just in worship, is &#8220;nonsense&#8221;.</p>
<p>In fact, I&#8217;m not quite sure what you&#8217;re suggesting as an alternative to the pursuit of excellence.  And I don&#8217;t mean the rhetoric like &#8220;recognize who we are worshipping&#8221; or &#8220;seek His face&#8221; etc.  We&#8217;re talking methods here.</p>
<p>Is there any particular objection you have to doing music the best we can?  If it&#8217;s rock, then do rock the best we can.  If it&#8217;s classical, then do classical the best that you can.</p>
<p>My personal objection to many churches is that the members will spend 10 hours preparing a report for work, then have a half-hour choir practice or band practice.  Where are the priorities?</p>
<p>I hope you&#8217;ll come back and elaborate for us.  I don&#8217;t believe you are calling for us to avoid excellence, but I&#8217;m not really sure what you are saying either.  Let us know <img src='http://www.nathanrice.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/christian-excellence/#comment-375</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2007 18:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/20/christian-excellence/#comment-375</guid>
		<description>I am a encouraged by his blog. I wanted to speak to #14 Dan..
I understand what your saying.Worship is so much more.. It&#039;s a way of life. not Sunday morning-- I&#039;m called to ministry on a worship team and our church is designed to reach out to the unreached.They are the ones that will notice bad sound systems, flat singing, bad guitar playing and insincerity. If by pursuing excellence I can capture their attention long enough to get them to listen to what comes next then I&#039;m all about it.. We&#039;ve done  secular songs  regularly (Tom Petty U2- Evanescence,) a few minutes before preservice intentionally for this purpose..and  we work hard to get it right...to get the weekend services started out on common familiar ground for every one then when the worship set is introduced there is focus on adoring exalting and lifting up the One who gives us gifts freely.In corporate worship , I feel more free to worship when I know the music cold rather than throwing it together and hoping it works out..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a encouraged by his blog. I wanted to speak to #14 Dan..<br />
I understand what your saying.Worship is so much more.. It&#8217;s a way of life. not Sunday morning&#8211; I&#8217;m called to ministry on a worship team and our church is designed to reach out to the unreached.They are the ones that will notice bad sound systems, flat singing, bad guitar playing and insincerity. If by pursuing excellence I can capture their attention long enough to get them to listen to what comes next then I&#8217;m all about it.. We&#8217;ve done  secular songs  regularly (Tom Petty U2- Evanescence,) a few minutes before preservice intentionally for this purpose..and  we work hard to get it right&#8230;to get the weekend services started out on common familiar ground for every one then when the worship set is introduced there is focus on adoring exalting and lifting up the One who gives us gifts freely.In corporate worship , I feel more free to worship when I know the music cold rather than throwing it together and hoping it works out..</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Cotten</title>
		<link>http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/christian-excellence/#comment-367</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Cotten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:59:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/20/christian-excellence/#comment-367</guid>
		<description>I hear what your saying, Dan.  In fact, God doesn&#039;t NEED our worship at all!  He desires it.  He even commands it.  But He doesn&#039;t NEED it.  If He needed anything from us, He wouldn&#039;t be God.  I believe worship is a matter of an inner heart attitude towards God.  If that is true, then a sincere desire to bring our BEST to God &lt;i&gt;is, in fact, worship&lt;/i&gt;.  The attitude of the heart is the measure of the &quot;quality&quot; of the worship.

I liken it to the parable Jesus told about the widow who gave all she had (though a small amount) and the rich man who gave a small percentage of what he had (though a large amount).  God views the widow&#039;s small amount as the authentic act of worship because she gave it all.

I think Nathan&#039;s point is that so very often in the church we give our best to the world and then bring God the scraps.  I think it&#039;s appropriate that when we are singing (or playing, working, parenting, etc) in the court of the King that we would desire to sing the best we can because we want Him to get our best offering.

However, I do agree that there is also another part of the modern church that has put excellence and professionalism onto a pedestal and labeled it worship.  In my view, they are as wrong as the &quot;God doesn&#039;t care&quot; crowd.

Really, I think it comes down to how a person&#039;s (or local church&#039;s) theology of God in terms of His imminence  (closeness, intimacy, grace) and transcendence (otherness, holiness, justice).  But, I&#039;ve drolled on too long...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hear what your saying, Dan.  In fact, God doesn&#8217;t NEED our worship at all!  He desires it.  He even commands it.  But He doesn&#8217;t NEED it.  If He needed anything from us, He wouldn&#8217;t be God.  I believe worship is a matter of an inner heart attitude towards God.  If that is true, then a sincere desire to bring our BEST to God <i>is, in fact, worship</i>.  The attitude of the heart is the measure of the &#8220;quality&#8221; of the worship.</p>
<p>I liken it to the parable Jesus told about the widow who gave all she had (though a small amount) and the rich man who gave a small percentage of what he had (though a large amount).  God views the widow&#8217;s small amount as the authentic act of worship because she gave it all.</p>
<p>I think Nathan&#8217;s point is that so very often in the church we give our best to the world and then bring God the scraps.  I think it&#8217;s appropriate that when we are singing (or playing, working, parenting, etc) in the court of the King that we would desire to sing the best we can because we want Him to get our best offering.</p>
<p>However, I do agree that there is also another part of the modern church that has put excellence and professionalism onto a pedestal and labeled it worship.  In my view, they are as wrong as the &#8220;God doesn&#8217;t care&#8221; crowd.</p>
<p>Really, I think it comes down to how a person&#8217;s (or local church&#8217;s) theology of God in terms of His imminence  (closeness, intimacy, grace) and transcendence (otherness, holiness, justice).  But, I&#8217;ve drolled on too long&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: dan mcgowan</title>
		<link>http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/christian-excellence/#comment-368</link>
		<dc:creator>dan mcgowan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2007 03:48:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/20/christian-excellence/#comment-368</guid>
		<description>I will be viewed as one of those christians who is criticizing other christians for pursuing excellence. And that is sad.  Because I&#039;m not such a person.  What I criticize is this never-ending, completely unbiblical push (and it is a push) for performance and perfectionism in our musical offerings of worship and then using Bible verses that do not even hint at such idocy on which to build our case.  Friends - God does not NEED us to have perfect harmonies, well crafted songs, fantastic chord progressions, etc, in order to be worshiped.  All he needs is a heart that is pure and true and sacrificial and desiring to put Him first - aheads of EVERY possible chord, rhythm, note, beat, lick, solo, video stream, midi-riff, you name it.  And until we honestly and truly believe that - and then live it out - really - we run the risk of creating idols.  Nuff said for now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will be viewed as one of those christians who is criticizing other christians for pursuing excellence. And that is sad.  Because I&#8217;m not such a person.  What I criticize is this never-ending, completely unbiblical push (and it is a push) for performance and perfectionism in our musical offerings of worship and then using Bible verses that do not even hint at such idocy on which to build our case.  Friends &#8211; God does not NEED us to have perfect harmonies, well crafted songs, fantastic chord progressions, etc, in order to be worshiped.  All he needs is a heart that is pure and true and sacrificial and desiring to put Him first &#8211; aheads of EVERY possible chord, rhythm, note, beat, lick, solo, video stream, midi-riff, you name it.  And until we honestly and truly believe that &#8211; and then live it out &#8211; really &#8211; we run the risk of creating idols.  Nuff said for now.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan</title>
		<link>http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/christian-excellence/#comment-384</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Mar 2007 20:40:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/02/20/christian-excellence/#comment-384</guid>
		<description>Ben,

I&#039;ve seen to much of both to not pitch my tent dead center of them.  Thanks for the props, I need that sometimes!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen to much of both to not pitch my tent dead center of them.  Thanks for the props, I need that sometimes!</p>
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