Dangerous Questions – God Hates?

Does God “hate”? Does God choose who gets saved?

Lets ask Him!

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

There is his answer…

I can sit here and quote verse after verse, and they all read the same…

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Either a person believes that the bible is infallible, and inerrant. Or they choose to believe that God lies and changes His mind.

Folks may not like the fact that God has chosen who gets saved, but that is just too bad!

As long as God is Omnipotent, Omnisicent, & Omnipresent, there is no way in the world that we are going to tell Him what to do, and how to do it.

In the discussion on the previous article, Ben pointed out that while the Bible makes clear that homosexuality, among other sins, is a violation of God’s moral and religious law, but that it should be left to God to mete out punishment for such sins.

However, Leviticus 20 seems to state that those who commit such sins should be put to death. The NIV, KJV and the Latin Vulgate Bible are equally clear on this, and they don’t differ much. I of course am not a scholar of Hebrew so I can’t check for biases on the part of the translators, but I don’t quite see how one could misinterpret that. It isn’t like some passages where various people claim that a word for prostitute or rapist or such is mistranslated to mean homosexual or that the Bible is not talking about consensual monogamous homosexual relationships. This is blanket coverage of all male homosexual relationships, consensual or not, monogamous or not, and clearly gives to mortal authorities the mandate to execute these offenders.

It seems to me that those who use the Bible to justify killing homosexuals are, if the Bible is literally true, completely in the right. Which leads me right back to my main point in the previous discussion: moderate and liberal theists, who comprise mainstream Western society, give comfort to religious extremists by criticizing their actions while admitting the veracity of the ethical grounds on which said actions are based.

Btw, the linking to Bible passages feature on here is pretty cool. I guess I never noticed it before.

I’m almost afraid to ask, but what if they Bible was clear that all homosexuals should be stoned?

Leviticus 20:13: “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”

Seems to me it’s saying exactly that.

Romans 1:31-32: Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

This doesn’t explicitly refer to homosexuality, and “without natural affection” could be interpreted to mean any number of things. However, it is frequently interpreted by fundamentalists to mean homosexuality.
However, other bits of Romans Chapter 1 do clearly refer to homosexuality, and verse 30 seems to include all sins mentioned in Chapter 1 as ‘worthy of death’.

None of this is anything like as explicit as Leviticus- though it is just as explicit in regards to condemning homosexuality, just not so explicit in regards to punishment for it. The phrase “worthy of death” does not necessarily mean that men should actually put them to death. However, can you argue that those who interpret it to justify killing gays are wrong in their interpretation?

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

In the end, it requires one to take a stand.

Does one believe in “Biblical Inerrancy” and “Biblical Infallibility” or not?

Either God tells the truth, and does not change His mind.

Or God lies, and is fickle…

There is no middle ground!

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

We may not “like” what we read, but we either believe it or not. We either live by it or not.

It is “man” that has strayed away from the “Law”, not the “Law” from “man”.

I am sorry, it sounds cold and cruel, but…

Which is why I made the disclaimer of “What if it was Jesus Himself who commanded it?”

After re-reading this it struck me as kinda funny. You seem to have already answered this for yourself!

Jesus DID COMMAND IT in Leviticus 20!

It seemed kinda strange at first when I read it, then it hit me (I can be slow at times)

God…
Jesus…
The Holy Spirit…

The difference in authority is???

Remember, when one speaks, it is the voice of all 3.

God in His omniscience knows who will repent and who will not and that may or may not be election but I believe that too often election is used as an excuse to not evangelize. 2 Peter 3:9 says …He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.(NLT) If God does not want anyone to be destroyed then we should be about seeing that people are not destroyed. Our doctrine should be based on loving God with all of our heart, soul and mind and loving our neighbor as ourselves.
God commanded us to make disciples not bring His judgement prematurely.
I leave you with this…

Do all that you can to live in peace with everyone.
Dear friends, never take revenge. Leave that to the righteous anger of God. For the Scriptures say,

“I will take revenge;
I will pay them back,”
says the Lord
Romans 12:18,19 (NLT)

God in His omniscience knows who will repent and who will not

God uses “Fortune Telling” to decide what names are written in the book before time even began???

If that were the case, there where does “Grace” fit in?

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

There is nothing until Grace is shown. All mankind is totally depraved, it is only when God offers His Grace that they repent.

No Grace, No Repentance! The choice is not of man’s, but of God’s

Exodus 33:19 …and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Matthew 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?…

2 Timothy 2:25 …if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

“Faith” & “Repentance” are gifts from God. Man has no possible way of making that choice. Man will not, and cannot repent until God shews His mercy first.

How many times have parents told their children… “Because I Said So!” when their children ask why their parents made the desicion they did?

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In the end, if we ask the “Father” why He chose who He chose…

His answer comes out as “Cause I said so…”

The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is indeed weak! we dislike things that the flesh dislikes, it is natural in us to feel that way. So it is expected that we will sometimes dislike the things that we read. The things that bring order to our chaos, but what choice do we have?

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

No choice to accept Christ — no responsibility to accept Christ.

“No choice to accept Christ” — “no desire to accept Christ.”

The heart is hardened, it is when the Holy Spirit “softens” the heart of the elect that the desire arises, and thus the responsibility is created.

If your heart is hardened, do you sit 24/7 worrying about how you will be saved? No. You laugh at the “Christian Sheep” and their “Invisible God”. Have you never seen the hardened heart of an “Athiest” as they laugh and ridicule God? Where is “their” responsibility? It does not exist, because there is no desire! That Athiest might be saved later on, or maybe not. But either way, it will be God’s choice whether or not that heart will be softened to allow “belief”.

I don’t believe I’ve done much in the way of ridiculing, and I don’t believe my heart is too hard. If God wants me to accept him, there are a great many ways he could go about that. Based on the fact that he hasn’t, there are two choices:

1. He doesn’t want me to believe in him.
2. He doesn’t exist.

Ben and Guy have a very neat explanation for #1: only the few elect will be saved, and obviously I’m not one of them. But Nate, as far as I know you don’t subscribe to Calvinism, so aren’t you left in a quandary as to why, to people like me, God is curiously silent?

I don’t believe my heart is too hard.

Its not! Why do you think you are here? You think it is an accident? That you found Nate? Maybe God lead you here? No one but God knows why you are here.

If God wants me to accept him, there are a great many ways he could go about that.

He already has, you are here!

1. He doesn’t want me to believe in him.

If that were true, you would not be here, and you would not be interacting with us. You said you are not “ridiculing”, ergo you have a legitimate interest, you may not believe…. But look at your time here, and your interactions. The “desire” is there. But you will be saved in “God’s time” and no one elses. Many Christians are not “Born Again” until later in life. Some like myself end up in a church as a child, and go from there. Others are parents of children attending church that go when their children ask. God saved the child, so that the child could lead the adult to Christ. It is strange how God works, but he has a reason for everything…

2. He doesn’t exist.

If that were true, you would not be here, and neither would anyone else.

Ben and Guy have a very neat explanation for #1:

No. “God” has an explanation for #1:, we are just the ones telling it to you. I give the book, chapter, and verse in case you want to validate what I say is true.

and obviously I’m not one of them.

Says who? God told you that? I never did, and no Christian in their right mind could ever discern who is, and who isn’t elect. Hence the reason for strong missions in the so-called “House Of Calvin” We can guess if someone is “not saved”, but as to their “election”, only God knows that.

God is curiously silent?

Silent? If you are “unsaved”, then every post here made by myself and other Christians is a “witness” to you. God is hard at work, but in HIS time, NOT ours…

Let me describe what is going on inside of you. Just by what you write, and how you write it, I can tell that there is a “feeling” inside of you. Something you were born with, it tells you when something is right, and when something is wrong. Most call it a conscience. And when you do something wrong, that same “feeling” makes you feel remorse.

It is because of this feeling, that at times you actually read what is written, hear what is said, and at times it peaks your curiosity.

The things you read, the things you hear are “seeds” being planted by those that God has pushed in your direction, or has pulled you into their direction.

Those times that you are curious, you ask questions, you think, you wonder. That is the Holy Spirit watering those seeds that are being planted. Like anything else, it takes time for what is planted to grow. Weeks, Months, years. But eventually it will grow. And then, the time will come, when something inside you will “snap”, it is then that the very “first fruit” has budded. It is then that you will see clearly, and it is then that you will… Like the Phillipian jailer will ask… What must I do to be saved.

You may not want to discuss, or admit that here. And that is ok. What matters is what you feel and think when you are reading this, and other posts. What you hear from people talking. That is what is important.

Could it be that God brought both you and I here so that you could read what you are reading now?

Who knows? Who cares! As long as you read what I am typing is what matters.

I do not, and cannot save you.

You do not, and cannot save yourself.

But what you and both can do is read what each other types, and answer. It is then that the holy Spirit will tell me what to write, what you need to read to move on to the next step in your salvation.

You and I are not here by accident. You and I are here because God wants us both to be here.

God silent? Nope. He is speaking at this very moment to you as I type.

Its called “Special Revelation”, it is used by the Holy Spirit to impart His message to you.

You may claim God is “Silent”…

But I can assure you that you read this post right down the the period at the end of this sentence.

But I can assure you that you read this post right down the the period at the end of this sentence.

You’re certainly right about that much. I’m always willing to hear what you have to say.

Doesn’t mean I agree with you, and I don’t agree with pretty much anything else you said. Now, I don’t know that you aren’t right. I don’t know the future, and I don’t claim to *know* that God does not exist. It could very well be that what you are describing is exactly what is happening, and I am being lead here that I may ’see the light’.

However, I see no compelling reason to believe that is the case. I don’t have any reason to believe that any God intended me to meet Nate; we both like to debate, we both are interested in evolution and creationism/ID, and we both are on Digg. We argued, we exchanging emails, we became friends, he started this blog, and I came here. Not much in the way of divine intervention there.

Of course you can interpret that as divine intervention, and I’m sure you do. And I’m sure you don’t intend it, but the whole attitude of “You’ll see the light eventually” is extremely frustrating to atheists. We find it exceedingly patronizing. Granted, that wasn’t as bad as some iterations I’ve heard, but we really HATE it when Christians say things like, “I’ll pray for you,” or spout Bible passages in the vein of Psalm 14:1, or “God is working on you, you’ll convert eventually, so none of your arguments matter because He’s real and you’ll know it sooner or later.”

As I said, yes, you can interpret any set of events as the specific divine will of God. But that’s exactly the problem: any set of events! Those who pray are more likely to be healed than others? Great evidence for God! Those who pray aren’t more likely to be healed? Doesn’t matter, God’s just subtle like that. It’s that sort of logic which really, REALLY irks me.

Doesn’t mean I agree with you, and I don’t agree with pretty much anything else you said.

Thats fine as I said before… I don’t expect you to.

What I expect is that God will provide the soil, (you) and the seed, (me). from there on, He will supply the water. My job is only the “planter”, I serve no other puropse than that.

and I am being lead here that I may ’see the light’.

You answered didn’t you? If you were “dead set” against God, you would have blown me off.

Not much in the way of divine intervention there.

Really?

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I don’t want you to “Believe” George. All I want is you to read. Nothing more, nothing less. My job is only to type, nothing more, nothing less.

“You’ll see the light eventually” is extremely frustrating to atheists.

It is rather frustrating to Christians too! If I had anything to say, I would ask that God reveal Himself to all of the elect right now, and have done with it. But He has reasons why he doesn’t, reasons I will never know. So all I can do is keep on typing!

Those who pray are more likely to be healed than others?

Nope. That is “hooey” spread by “Church Politics”, not God.

If you have read what I have been typing, you will see that I am not like the others. I am a part of a small minority of Christians that casts aside all of the “Polity, Policy, & Politics”

Whether or not you ever get saved is NONE OF MY BUSINESS. I have no right to stick my nose into God’s plans. All I have is a responsibility to type in this little box that Nate has on his weblog for commenting.

That is the problem that so-called “Athiests” have, is that the current incarnation of the “New Testament Church” is paralyzed with sin. Look at Nates newest post. it is a prime example of why folks are hardened toward God.

It is not God that is screwing things up, it is his people. I hate to say this here, but read around my website. I am not like most. I am NOTHING, just a person like you, I am not SPECIAL, I am just a person who came from dust, and to dust shall I return!

I can never say this enough!!!! “IGNORE THE CHURCH”… Believe God!

God, (The Bible) will NEVER LIE. “man” will lie through his teeth, whilst he carries that same “Bible” in his hand!

If I have “irked” you, then I am sorry, but as long as you read what I am typing, then keep getting irked, get anything you want, just don’t ever think that “Christians” or “Christianity” can ever do anything for you. We can’t.

Only God can. Believe Him, not me.

Let’s put it this way: If and when God starts speaking to me, I shall look you up and tell you all about it.

Let’s put it this way: If and when God starts speaking to me, I shall look you up and tell you all about it.

I would be honored more than I could ever deserve to hear your testimony. Anytime you want to discuss God/Bible/Theology/Doctrine or maybe just secular current events, please feel free to use the contact form at my website to tell me your email address, and I will give you my personal email address if you would like to chat. And never fear, I do not preach… Well, I do at my online church, but never in friendly discussions via email.

May God Bless your every step in life,
Guy R. Vestal & Family…

And seeing as Nate has been such a good sport about these streaming comments, I think I will throw up a link to his blog to go with Ch Comm Pro.

Do you believe man is responsible to accept Christ?

Yes. but he has to “want to” first!

Lets say you get married, and then your wife has a baby. Does that make you a “Father”?

No.

You do not become a father, until you “want” to be one. you must “desire” to be a “Parent” you do not become one simply by virtue of the birth of the child. How many times do we see men who simply skip out on the family, and leave the child(ren) with the mother. Are they still a “Father”? No. They do not want to be, they do not want the “responsibility”.

Joe Smith does not believe in God. Ergo he could care less about serving God. God is nothing, he has no “desire” to be a “Christian”.

Now back to the man with the baby…

He sees the baby after it is born, something inside him snaps, he realizes that this child is the most beautiful thing he has ever seen, and he has an instant love for it. He “desires” to love and care for it as a “Father”.

Now back to Joe…

One day, after hearing about God for who knows how many times, maybe the first, maybe the thousandth, but all of a sudden something inside him snaps, and he realizes that he was wrong, maybe there is a God, and maybe he needs help, something is different, he now “desires” to take that leap of faith and cry out to god for help. He says he is sorry, he has been wrong, and asks for forgiveness. He has the “desire” to repent, he has the “desire” to admit that he is wrong, he now wants to be “responsible”, and step up to the plate and own up to his mistakes, and ask for forgiveness.

Like the father, Joe “wants” to make amends, and take responsibility.

Man is not forced to do anything, but with God’s grace, and the gift of faith, and the desire to repent, he has no choice but to act on that feeling inside of him.

Think back to that day you said the sinners prayer Nate, how did you feel?

No matter who it is, when that moment hits, and that person feels the conviction, it is in that moment that, like the father, the person cries out. “I was wrong”, “I am responsible for my mistakes”, I have a “duty” to ask God to forgive me for what I have done.

Joe is not “responsible” for anything unless he desires/chooses to be…

If Joe has been elected/chosen, he has no choice, that feeling will come, and he will submit through his own “freewill” (That Arminian term they love so much)

Responsibility is not “thrust upon” man, it is freely chosen.

To be honest, I’m pretty confident that if you were given the evidence you require, you’d be a believer.

If it is “evidence” one waits for, they will be waiting until the day they reach the “Great White Throne Judgement”. It will never come.

Matthew 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Satan demanded “proof” that Jesus was the “Christ”

Jesus answered…

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

The Scribes & Pharisees demanded evidence that Jesus was the “Christ”…

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

Jesus answered…

Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Did God prove himself to you Nate when you said the sinners prayer?

Or did you step out in faith, and cried out?

I remember my day…

I was a child, in South Euclid Baptist Church, California. I was in the 6th pew row from the front, on the left, two spaces from the outside of the center aisle. I knew it was time, I took 3 steps to the right side, and walked forward. No one asked me to, no one even suggested it. The call came, and I answered. I had no choice, I was pulled out into that isle as if drawn like a magnet. I felt the change the exact secon I asked in the middle of the prayer, and baptised a week later.

I could sit here for hours and describe the miracles God worked in my life since that day, but unless someone who is reading it is a believer, they would never understand, and easily find a way to “justify” the impossible things that happened.

Here is a good example…

There was a time in my life when a “Church Split” caused me to rebel against God. I was mad, I hated God. So I declared war.

I built and ran the largest Pagan Corporation in the world, as an affront to God.

Look here and see…

http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2000/05/35931

My marriage was in shambles, my wife and I were both arrested for “domestic violence” in Northern San Diego, California.

We were booked, photos, fingerprints, wristbands, everything.

That night a man walked into my cell (room) and told me that God was calling me back, and the time to be bitter was over. I was shocked!

The next morning my wife and I went to the underground holding area of the court at 8am. I watched as one after another prisioner went out to be taken to arraignment.

At 5:30 pm, all alone undergound, a sherriff walked up and asked me “What in the hell are you doing here”? I said I am still waiting.

He looked at my wristband, wrote down my info, and about an hour later, came back, and said there was no record of me, no computer record, no fingerprints, no photos, no paper records, no arrest report. I was not supposed to be in jail. He told me I had to leave.

I was escorted out, got my belongings, and told at the last door that my wife would join me in minutes. She did, with the same story. All paperwork and computer entries had vanished.

We got home, and I got on the computer, and in 2 clicks, I found the church I needed to go to on the web.

That Sunday, the pastor told me he was waiting for me to arrive, and had been praying for God to send me. The pastor knew not who I was, or anything I had done, he just knew I was coming.

That is where I renounced my stupidity, and decided never again to turn my back on God.

Believe it or not!

I immediately sold my company for pennies on the dollar, and threw the money in the collection plate 8 Sundays later.

And since then, I have dedicated myself to the Gospel Of Jesus Christ.

Wow, I get buried in work for a day and look what happens! I missed all the fun!

You guys are debating ideas that have been fought over for centuries. It’s an age old theological question: God’s sovereignty vs. man’s responsibility. Really, it’s a paradox because what we find in scripture is that BOTH are true. God is in control of everything. Anything less and we have an imperfect God. At the same time, man is fully responsible for his actions, and his actions and decisions have very real consequences (the role of prayer, outreach, missions, sin, etc).

Reconciling the two together in a perfect, neat way really isn’t possible. At the end of the day (George, you’re gonna LOVE this…) you have to shake your head in amazement at the complexity of God and get comfy with the paradox.

That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be talked about. On the contrary. However, this is God we’re talking about. If we could understand all of Him, He wouldn’t be God. We would be.

This paradox is also the reason we have Systematic Theology. It’s why it’s so important to look at what the whole Bible says about a particular topic instead of just quoting a few isolated scriptures to make a point. God is much more complex than we give Him credit for.

Sorry I missed all the fun…

It’s why it’s so important to look at what the whole Bible says about a particular topic instead of just quoting a few isolated scriptures to make a point.

Is that an “Arminian” tone I detect in your comment. hahahaha!

Is that an “Arminian” tone I detect in your comment. hahahaha!

Tone? What tone?

Yes. but he has to “want to” first!

Lets say you get married, and then your wife has a baby. Does that make you a “Father”?

No.

You do not become a father, until you “want” to be one. you must “desire” to be a “Parent” you do not become one simply by virtue of the birth of the child.

I think we now approach the crux of the matter. I don’t have any particular desire to believe. I don’t have any particular aversion to it, but I don’t have any desire for it either.

What I do have a desire for is knowledge. If God is real, then I definitely want to know that. But the difference between me and you, I think, is that I don’t desire to know that God is real; I desire to know whether or not he is real. I’m sure you all grasp the distinction.

So if that prevents me from ever knowing God, I can live with that. Maybe I’m going to Hell. But it seems to me that in order to get to know God, if you are correct anyway, I’ve got to surrender an aspect of myself that forms a key part of my identity- namely, my unwillingness to accept anything without question. In the absence of God as an objective moral rubric, I have only my identity with which to judge the relative merits of the courses laid before me. It’s rather a paradox for me: in order to get to know God, in order to hear him speak to me and show me that he’s real, I must already believe in him; but in order to believe in him in the absence of any compelling reason to do so I must abandon a core part of my self. And if doing so is the only way to avoid Hell, so be it. I’ll burn.

And if doing so is the only way to avoid Hell, so be it. I’ll burn.

I would throw the TBN/700 Club/EWTN/Sky Angel/Daystar cliche of “I Will Pray For You Brother…” at you, but seeing as I a resident of the “House Of Calvin”, my “prayers” would not change the election of a person. Ergo all I can say is that…

At least we can discuss and debate until the time comes for you to “burn” though George… {Unless I go first, then I will put in a good word for ya whether ya like it or not! hahaha}

Besides… I need “unsaved” friends to keep me in check in case I get a little too pious.

So to answer your question, I’m not sure why you haven’t been given the evidence you need. Maybe this is a cop out, but you’re a young guy, and have a lot more life to live.

I’m certainly that- I think Matthew is the only regular poster here who’s close to my age.

Anyway, maybe someday I’ll hear the call. I personally doubt it, but of course it’s possible. Until then, I guess I’m just your friendly neighborhood atheist

I’m certainly that- I think Matthew is the only regular poster here who’s close to my age.

Hey! Am I the oldest person here? Oh please don’t tell me I have assumed the position of “Codger”…

Hey! Am I the oldest person here? Oh please don’t tell me I have assumed the position of “Codger”…

Probably so, sorry! I’m only 20, myself. I’m not actually sure how old Nate is- I’m guessing between 25-30?

Ah, ok then. I saw a pic of you on some article you linked me to and I thought you looked older, but it was only a thumbnail so it was hard to tell.

Probably so, sorry! I’m only 20, myself. I’m not actually sure how old Nate is- I’m guessing between 25-30?

C’mon Ben! Save me! tell them you are older than 41…