Comments on: Freedom or Security? If You Had to Choose… http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose-2/ The Personal Webspace of Nathan Rice Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:15:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: George http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose-2/#comment-1699 George Mon, 31 Dec 2007 04:02:33 +0000 http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/17/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose/#comment-1699 Ok. So congress should have oversight, but the people they represent shouldn't see certain sensitive information. But representative government only works if the citizenry is informed about their representatives' political conduct, and can thus decide their vote in the next election based on said conduct in the previous term. If this kind of information isn't declassified until decades, even as much as a half-century later, our vote is not truly informed; we will be unable to factor the quality of oversight of these classified government proceedings into our vote. A major strength in our system of checks and balances is that officials in different branches of government take office in different ways. If the integrity of a politician's oversight of key secret programs is never an issue in his election, isn't that a problem? Ok. So congress should have oversight, but the people they represent shouldn’t see certain sensitive information. But representative government only works if the citizenry is informed about their representatives’ political conduct, and can thus decide their vote in the next election based on said conduct in the previous term. If this kind of information isn’t declassified until decades, even as much as a half-century later, our vote is not truly informed; we will be unable to factor the quality of oversight of these classified government proceedings into our vote. A major strength in our system of checks and balances is that officials in different branches of government take office in different ways. If the integrity of a politician’s oversight of key secret programs is never an issue in his election, isn’t that a problem?

]]> By: Nathan http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose-2/#comment-1705 Nathan Sun, 30 Dec 2007 23:08:44 +0000 http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/17/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose/#comment-1705 @George Indeed I do disagree with many of the programs revealed by the NYT, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they should be cavalier with the treatment of that information. It could have been handled much better. Ideally, checks and balances would actually work, and programs that are unconstitutional would be eliminated before they can become top-secret. I agree with Eric that some things need to stay out of the public domain, but our representatives should have full access to this kind of information, so as to protect us from an oppressive government program. Better yet, the judiciary would be neutral and devoted to the constitutional text. But because they are not, I'm with Jefferson ... the congress should have a say in constitutional matters as well. @George
Indeed I do disagree with many of the programs revealed by the NYT, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they should be cavalier with the treatment of that information. It could have been handled much better. Ideally, checks and balances would actually work, and programs that are unconstitutional would be eliminated before they can become top-secret. I agree with Eric that some things need to stay out of the public domain, but our representatives should have full access to this kind of information, so as to protect us from an oppressive government program.

Better yet, the judiciary would be neutral and devoted to the constitutional text. But because they are not, I’m with Jefferson … the congress should have a say in constitutional matters as well.

]]> By: George http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose-2/#comment-1701 George Sun, 30 Dec 2007 06:14:04 +0000 http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/17/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose/#comment-1701 If memory serves, Nate, you are strongly opposed to several of the secret programs that the NYT revealed; do you nevertheless prefer the media not to expose such information on the off-chance it could have an adverse effect on national security? If memory serves, Nate, you are strongly opposed to several of the secret programs that the NYT revealed; do you nevertheless prefer the media not to expose such information on the off-chance it could have an adverse effect on national security?

]]> By: Nathan http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose-2/#comment-1704 Nathan Sat, 29 Dec 2007 18:06:25 +0000 http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/17/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose/#comment-1704 @Eric With all due respect to you and your service, I believe you grossly misunderstand the idea of freedom vs. security. But, no one is claiming that there shouldn't be top secret information. I understand the importance of this. I think it was terrible what the NYT has done in the past in regards to national security secrets, but I cherish the Bill of Rights over my own security. Free press is paramount to the people's ability to keep our government in check. Your analogy to the "fire in a crowded building" <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater" rel="nofollow">isn't exactly right</a>, by the way. The case where that phrase came from has been overturned. Keep in mind that "need" is never a decent argument. I don't "need" to have a fully automatic assault rifle, but I have a constitutional right to own one (unless congress unconstitutionally takes that right away). Hey, if I'm not hiding anything, then there's no reason for me to oppose the police to search my house every week, right??? NO!!! Please read the "patriot act" and then read the constitution. You'll find as many violations of the constitution as you will things that "make us safer". No matter how safe it makes us, it's not worth handing over my freedoms to the mercy of the executive branch and the congress. It's just not worth it. @Eric
With all due respect to you and your service, I believe you grossly misunderstand the idea of freedom vs. security. But, no one is claiming that there shouldn’t be top secret information. I understand the importance of this. I think it was terrible what the NYT has done in the past in regards to national security secrets, but I cherish the Bill of Rights over my own security. Free press is paramount to the people’s ability to keep our government in check. Your analogy to the “fire in a crowded building” isn’t exactly right, by the way. The case where that phrase came from has been overturned.

Keep in mind that “need” is never a decent argument. I don’t “need” to have a fully automatic assault rifle, but I have a constitutional right to own one (unless congress unconstitutionally takes that right away). Hey, if I’m not hiding anything, then there’s no reason for me to oppose the police to search my house every week, right???

NO!!!

Please read the “patriot act” and then read the constitution. You’ll find as many violations of the constitution as you will things that “make us safer”. No matter how safe it makes us, it’s not worth handing over my freedoms to the mercy of the executive branch and the congress. It’s just not worth it.

]]> By: Eric http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose-2/#comment-1702 Eric Fri, 28 Dec 2007 10:44:26 +0000 http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/17/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose/#comment-1702 This May Well be true, But as a soldier I Know ALL to Well that there are Many things that the American people do not need to know,and if they do know "these secrets" it puts the lives of the people sworn to protect them at great risk. When this happens it also puts the american people at great risk for an attack. Freedom of Speech is a right given to the people by the constitution but one cannot shout FIRE! in a theatre full of people, It puts lives at risk. In the same token The Press shouldn't have an all access pass to the Security Agencies work place, It Puts Lives at risk when the press shouts security secrets to the world.In the Military there are many things I don't know simply because I don't need to know to acomplish the mission. The More people that know something the Greater the risk that ones enemies will have the information. SO you are essentially correct trust was not absolutly a founding principle of th constitution but it is essential for the running of a govenment, ANY government. and there will Always have to be secrets to protect the security of a Free State. This May Well be true, But as a soldier I Know ALL to Well that there are Many things that the American people do not need to know,and if they do know “these secrets” it puts the lives of the people sworn to protect them at great risk. When this happens it also puts the american people at great risk for an attack. Freedom of Speech is a right given to the people by the constitution but one cannot shout FIRE! in a theatre full of people, It puts lives at risk. In the same token The Press shouldn’t have an all access pass to the Security Agencies work place, It Puts Lives at risk when the press shouts security secrets to the world.In the Military there are many things I don’t know simply because I don’t need to know to acomplish the mission. The More people that know something the Greater the risk that ones enemies will have the information. SO you are essentially correct trust was not absolutly a founding principle of th constitution but it is essential for the running of a govenment, ANY government. and there will Always have to be secrets to protect the security of a Free State.

]]> By: George http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose-2/#comment-1703 George Fri, 28 Dec 2007 06:43:25 +0000 http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/17/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose/#comment-1703 The founding principle of the United States is not trust, Eric. Our elected officials are not entitled to the benefit of the doubt. The founding principle of the United States is not trust, Eric. Our elected officials are not entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

]]> By: Eric http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose-2/#comment-1700 Eric Thu, 27 Dec 2007 07:48:10 +0000 http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/17/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose/#comment-1700 I'll preface My statement by saying that I re-enlisted in the national Guard the day after 911, Having said that, Anything that was done following 911 was done for the security of our great Nation and any measures that were taken were well worth it. I Know that people will complain that their "civil liberties have been infringed upon" but the fact is they have not. If the C.I.A and The F.B.I need to wire tap phone lines or use othe means of spying on terrorists the so be it. I'm not into anything illegal or undehanded so I have nothing to fear from their listening.That is on the completely rediculous assumption that they would even bother to listen to phone calls or use any other means of survallince unless that they didn't feel they had a good reason to. In Short The Security and intelligence agencies are here to protect the American people. I feel Very safe knowing that they will use any means nessecary to seek out and punish those that are a threat to my family and Our way of life. in closure I am all for liberty I have sworn to uphold and protect the Constitution, The " violations " of which you speak in my mind do not exist and are simply the Democrats Bush Bashing. They Do Not like Him they are still angry that he was elected President.... Twice, and they will continue to find fault where no fault exists and find controversy where no real controversy exists. SO sleep easy My friend Your rights are safe and thanks to the C.I.A, F.B.I, N.S.N, and all the other agencies So is the rest of you. I’ll preface My statement by saying that I re-enlisted in the national Guard the day after 911, Having said that, Anything that was done following 911 was done for the security of our great Nation and any measures that were taken were well worth it. I Know that people will complain that their “civil liberties have been infringed upon” but the fact is they have not. If the C.I.A and The F.B.I need to wire tap phone lines or use othe means of spying on terrorists the so be it. I’m not into anything illegal or undehanded so I have nothing to fear from their listening.That is on the completely rediculous assumption that they would even bother to listen to phone calls or use any other means of survallince unless that they didn’t feel they had a good reason to. In Short The Security and intelligence agencies are here to protect the American people. I feel Very safe knowing that they will use any means nessecary to seek out and punish those that are a threat to my family and Our way of life. in closure I am all for liberty I have sworn to uphold and protect the Constitution, The ” violations ” of which you speak in my mind do not exist and are simply the Democrats Bush Bashing. They Do Not like Him they are still angry that he was elected President…. Twice, and they will continue to find fault where no fault exists and find controversy where no real controversy exists. SO sleep easy My friend Your rights are safe and thanks to the C.I.A, F.B.I, N.S.N, and all the other agencies So is the rest of you.

]]> By: George http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose-2/#comment-1707 George Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:16:46 +0000 http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/17/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose/#comment-1707 'Give me liberty or give me death.' It's pretty simple. ‘Give me liberty or give me death.’ It’s pretty simple.

]]> By: One Eyed View http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose-2/#comment-1706 One Eyed View Tue, 18 Dec 2007 13:47:15 +0000 http://www.nathanrice.org/2007/12/17/freedom-or-security-if-you-had-to-choose/#comment-1706 The choice is clear for me, Constitutional Liberty. The choice is clear for me, Constitutional Liberty.

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